Hyperion Entertainment Message Boards

@kas1e

Because not all windowses should be closed. And for user, window its window, app is app. Window can be WB window, and he will try to close them (as i do for few years before understand that its not about WB windowses , but about APP which make stuff wrong).

Good point. A prime example is AmiUpdate. If AmiUpdate is iconified to a dockie, the user may never guess that it's AmiUpdate that is blocking a Workbench screenmode change. If he does realize that the problem is AmiUpdate and clicks on the AmiUpdate icon in AmiDock to open the window so it can be closed, AmiUpdate will not open it's window. If the user cancels the screenmode change, the AmiUpdate icon in AmiDock no longer works. Both the AmiUpdate window and AmiUpdate Prefs window will block a Workbench screenmode change until they are closed.

I also question the Workbench "Close all windows" requester itself. The requester opens and closes several times without allowing the user enough time to close windows. The user must wait until Workbench opens the requester and leaves it open before attempting to close windows. If the first attempt to change screemodes fails because of open windows, why repeat the attempt without giving the user enough time to react and close windows?? Just open the requester once and wait until the user closes windows or clicks a gadget in the requester.

Isn´t it interesting? You talk about specific software that doesn´t behave correctly. Where´s the problem with reporting it?

xenic wrote:I thought there was already an intuition message to indicate Workbench (or any screen) reset. Isn't that the purpose of the Intuition StartScreenNotifyTagList() function??

I don´t think that this is the real purpose of this function, but it could be used to get notified for the close of the Workbench screen at least.

The Screen notifying feature could perhaps be used to get the name of an application that is requesting a lock on a public screen?

whose wrote: I don´t think that this is the real purpose of this function, but it could be used to get notified for the close of the Workbench screen at least.

That's exactly what you want. The "Close all windows" requester you get is because Workbench is attempting to close the Workbench screen and can't because of open windows or screen locks.

The Screen notifying feature could perhaps be used to get the name of an application that is requesting a lock on a public screen?

The problem isn't just screen locking; all windows must be closed before Workbench can close it's screen and reopen in the new screenmode. Read the StartScreenNotifyTagList() autodoc. It also has a tag to receive notification of screen locking and unlocking.

whose wrote:Isn´t it interesting? You talk about specific software that doesn´t behave correctly. Where´s the problem with reporting it?

I just did report it. 3 developers and 1 beta tester have been reading this thread and making comments.

@whose

I fully understand your point with this. I just think that it´s overkill to rework the system just to get some info for the user, which window to close, when he gets this info today at the point he closes the right windwow.

That why i say: let's then just rephrase that warning window so and old and new users will understand what going on. No need to make all that rework, dig in in roots of internals, just rephrase the warning message which will explain everything beter, so new and old users will undertsand what going on.

Isn´t it interesting? You talk about specific software that doesn´t behave correctly. Where´s the problem with reporting it?

Time, motivation and hope that someone else will report all issues (i.e. like any casual users think). Also if we take for example dopus4, i didn't report it because xenic (who laterly works on it) swith with us to dopus5, as well, as i do not think that fixing dopus4 in that terms will be easy enough. Or should i still report it ?:)


@all
In other wrods, to summorize that topic : everyone agree that system warning window should be rephrased (except whose for who its all understandable and clean, but i really didn't get what clean can be in words abous closing all windowses, while its about closing a faulty app(s). more of it, i can lock screen just by commoditie, or by shell app, and there will be no window for at all, so system warning pure _WRONG_). But as we somehow should think about new users who understand nothing, and who want to understand what going on just by reading proper warning, then my bet its just rephrase it (pure string change) , and done with it. So it will be good and for all newbe, and for whose as well Maybe we can together now make proper message to user, so i can make a BZ which will ask for just change that text in warning window. At least that will be something, and later, if, when, then any other changes can be done.

@whose
Have you any suggestions to another phrase in system warning (not the current one) which will say to user that problem is faulty app, not about closing all windowses and that strange "Except drivers". My bet is something about that:

"Intuition is trying to reset, but because one or more apps you have run do bad locking of screen without unlocking, you should try to found faulty app(s) and close it to make intuition to reset in realtime". Isn't that much than that we have ? And if nope, can anyone add necessary bits there, so it will be and easy to undertstand for user, and will have correct phrasing ? We also can add one more prhase after that , like "And don't forget to report to author of faulty app(s) about, if possible". So whole warning will looks like:

Intuition is trying to reset, but because one or more programm(s) you have run do bad locking of screen without unlocking, you should try to found faulty progamm(s) and close it to make intuition do reset in realtime. And don't forget to report to author of faulty app(s) about, if possible.

kas1e wrote:@whose

I fully understand your point with this. I just think that it´s overkill to rework the system just to get some info for the user, which window to close, when he gets this info today at the point he closes the right windwow.

That why i say: let's then just rephrase that warning window so and old and new users will understand what going on. No need to make all that rework, dig in in roots of internals, just rephrase the warning message which will explain everything beter, so new and old users will undertsand what going on.

I understood your point regarding new users. But I think that new users would be overwhelmed if you "warn" them with too many details.

Time, motivation and hope that someone else will report all issues (i.e. like any casual users think). Also if we take for example dopus4, i didn't report it because xenic (who laterly works on it) swith with us to dopus5, as well, as i do not think that fixing dopus4 in that terms will be easy enough. Or should i still report it ?:)

If it´s faulty, report it PubScreen locks can´t be that hard to unlock...

@whose
Have you any suggestions to another phrase in system warning (not the current one) which will say to user that problem is faulty app, not about closing all windowses and that strange "Except drivers". My bet is something about that:

"Intuition is trying to reset, but because one or more apps you have run do bad locking of screen without unlocking, you should try to found faulty app(s) and close it to make intuition to reset in realtime". Isn't that much than that we have ? And if nope, can anyone add necessary bits there, so it will be and easy to undertstand for user, and will have correct phrasing ? We also can add one more prhase after that , like "And don't forget to report to author of faulty app(s) about, if possible". So whole warning will looks like:

As I said above: "*tilt* too much information!" Find faulty apps? How? For a new user there is just the windows which are visible. We could replace the word "windows" by "applications", but that wouldn´t help in all cases (as we found out).

I think that there should be a link to Workbench documentation, which should get a part explaining this special problem. Btw., the "except all drawers" isn´t strange at all (as I said, too). The drawer windows don´t hinder the Workbench reset, so the user could ignore them.

A much bigger problem is an application (shell command, AmiDock AppDocky) behaving bad. This shouldn´t occur anymore.

As for AmiUpdate holding a screen lock, it seems to me that Intuition is already giving a hint at it. I tried it last night and the AmiUpdate docky icon is blinking, when Workbench is trying to reset. I don´t know if this is the case for all AppDockies, but I would think so. Something to test for the betatesters

Anybody should remember, that it is impossible to make a complex system totally transparent to new users. There is always such a thing as a "learning curve" and lazy people should really regain the habit of "RTFM".

Maybe we could do some animated tutorial using Hollywood or something, explaining all things and this special problem, too. Some of the lazy people don´t read manuals, but they often like to watch videos...

@whose

As I said above: "*tilt* too much information!" Find faulty apps? How? For a new user there is just the windows which are visible. We could replace the word "windows" by "applications", but that wouldn´t help in all cases (as we found out).

Application sound much better and it cover all cases (and faulty apps with window, and commodities, and amidock's dockies, and everything). Or even better "Programm" ? And you says "for a new user there is just the windows which are visible", but those apps which do lock without unlock, can have no windowses at all. And our warning just lie. And it happens for me some time, when i have bad app which forget unlock, and have no window. Old one, or whatever, does not matter. It can happens and still, and leave user guessing after he like a madmann close all WB windowses (of course only WB ones, because saying "windowses" didn't mean for him appliaction).

And you say "Find faulty apps? How?". Like now, he no need to found faulty window ? How he can found it then ? I.e. now , with current warning wording, he not only "how he will found it? ", but also he in guessing that its only about windowses, and only wb windowses and he will not try some faulty commoditie for example, and will blame os4 in end, because of lie-wording of warning.

I think that there should be a link to Workbench documentation, which should get a part explaining this special problem.

No one will read any documentation when he just play with settings. He will think "maybe i will read it someday'. Users lazy, you know it for sure.

Btw., the "except all drawers" isn´t strange at all (as I said, too). The drawer windows don´t hinder the Workbench reset, so the user could ignore them.

You still miss the point about wrong conenction of 2 phrases : close all windowses + except drivers = all about WB windowses _only_. Such logical connections do many users (not only me, and you can see it in that thread). There no needs to say about drivers, or not driver. Main point there that one of more apps are faulty.

I.e its still mess. It make user think, that if there is wording about drawers, then its _all only_ about WB (!) windowses. Because if warning say "close all _windowses_, except drivers", then of course he will think about _only_ WB windowses. How he ever will think about apps without window, if its cleary point on windowses only, and with all that addon about "except drives" make it even worse and misleading twice ! I think before its only about wb windowses. And as think other amiga users with who i discuss it back in past on our russian forums. And you can see there ppls also found warning outdated and misleading and which need changing. Only need to deal with whose who argue about

A much bigger problem is an application (shell command, AmiDock AppDocky) behaving bad. This shouldn´t occur anymore.

Of course, but it can and still sometime (bad commodities, or shell graphics convertors, or bad dockies, or whatever). Those not so many developer who we have (for example newbe ones), just can't know all the rulz. And they will make bad apps sometime. And its not about windowses at all. But it happens. So warning again, just lie. Or , at best, don't tell you truth but leave user guessing what it all about. And we not in ideal world : it should't happens today, but it is and still.

Anybody should remember, that it is impossible to make a complex system totally transparent to new users. There is always such a thing as a "learning curve" and lazy people should really regain the habit of "RTFM".

They will not. By saying "go RTFM" you only annoy users. They just want "that damn thing reset Intution", and if it can't they should know why it can't : because of bad app ! not because of some "window except the drivers". And when you will say him "go learn docs why it didn't reset intuition" , then its totally unfriendly and piece off from os. When , and if, there can be just normall human words, saying that one of apps behave badly, try to found and close it user will know what to do. Because now, warning just real misleading and understanable only for ppls who 20 years in amigas. You think its better to say him "close all windowses" and so, he should found what window ? How ? And skip all commodities and dockies (which in end and will behave badly, but he close all windowses, what wrong then ? ). It's not about windowses , but about app. I.e. _much_ better to say him go and found faulty _app_, than as it now : go and found faulty window (and only window!).

And topic which we discuss now (just rephrase warning window), is not expample where we can't make it better and understandable for user. Sure some thinging need it anyway with os4, but that particular warning for sure can be rephrased to be better. We just need proper words on which everyone will agree (just not current ones, as while its ok to some, for others are not, so we need one on which everyone will agree).

To clear, there is points, and i just can get how you can argue about it (expectually point #1):

1. Current warning say "close all windows": LIE. Not all window need to close. I mean no no and no. Not all windowses need to close. And not windowses at all. But application which do not do unlock. And application may have no window at all. That reality.
2. Current warning mean that its all about windows : its is not, its about apps.
3. Current warning says close all window except driver : again misledading, make user think its about WB windowses and only about windowses, but no , its not.


My bet then (or just show your idea, but not like it now, something else on which we _all_ can agree):

Intuition is attempting to reset the Workbench screen, and can't. Probably one or more applications you run now are writen badly and need fixing. Please try to close applications one by one to found faulty(s) one".

What about that one ?

Or , a bit bigger version with better understanding:

Intuition is attempting to reset the Workbench screen, and can't. Probably one or more applications you run now behave badly and forget to make unlock of screen, which prevent intuition to do reset. Please try to close applications one by one to found faulty(s) one".

Better, because there are less details a newbie user wouldn´t understand at all. Bad enough that the user´s obliged to find the faulty application...

By saying "go RTFM" you only annoy users.

I didn´t mean to use the exact phrasing, thats why I wrote "RTFM" (see the double quotes?). I know that most users are too lazy to read a manual. That´s why I proposed a video tutorial, explaining, among other topics, the problem with applications erraneously holding a screen lock. But nonetheless, trying to explain the problem within a single error requester is a quite bad idea. Too much information.

Intuition is attempting to reset the Workbench screen, and can't. Probably one or more applications you run now are writen badly and need fixing. Please try to close applications one by one to found faulty one(s)

This proposal is better, because it´s short and with less details only the advanced user understands.

To the "we have not enough developers" point: It´s meaningless, how many we have. If we had many with no sense for software quality, it would be even more bad. We would have to go the Unix way, securing all things sloppy developers could do wrong. That would be the point I (and I think others, too) would leave the Amiga.

Insist on software quality (Yes, I know, for ports of big software packages this isn´t feasible. But it IS definetly feasible for AmigaOS software. It would be even more easy if we finally would have e.g. a fully working source level debugger. I remember a time when it was promised, that going for ELF would open up the wonderful box of the superior binutil tools. Well...)

kas1e wrote:3. Current warning says close all window except driver : again misledading, make user think its about WB windowses and only about windowses, but no , its not.

You keep writing "except drivers", but it's not drivers, but drawers. The drawer windows are the Workbench windows showing the contents of drawers. (A driver is some software which drives a hardware (or virtual) device - but you probably know that.)

So the message is (at least more) correct: You don't have to close the windows which are under Workbench's control, i.e. the drawer windows, but all other windows (which haven't already closed automatically by then) are candidates for being closed manually.

Best regards,

Niels