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trixie wrote:@nbache

Updated the Keyboard chapter of the Style Guide:
http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/UI_Style_Guide_Keyboard

True, but unfortunately it is already in very common use in Amiga programs - old as well as newer - as "Save as". It probably wouldn't be a good idea to change it now.

Fortunately, not all Amiga programs need to implement "Select/mark all". But if I were to write, for example, a text editor I'd use "RAmiga-A" for "Select all text" (to stay in line with the convention in other OSes) and leave the "Save as" menu item with no shortcut.

BTW, I tried to find a link to the Wiki menuclass article by browsing the Wiki. Couldn't find it. Of course, I can find it with wiki search function, but shouldn't there always be a way to find articles by browsing the wiki, not just searching?

Marko

@blmara

I tried to find a link to the Wiki menuclass article by browsing the Wiki. Couldn't find it.

Reference / Libraries / User Interface Libraries / Intuition Library / Menus / Menu Class

trixie wrote:@nbache

Updated the Keyboard chapter of the Style Guide:
http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/UI_Style_Guide_Keyboard

Thanks, looks fine to me. Maybe we should even leave Save as out of the list and mention it in the text as originally suggested, but today probably more useful for Select all? In this case there is no big danger of a destructive misunderstanding by confusing the two functions.

Fortunately, not all Amiga programs need to implement "Select/mark all".

True, but also true of Save As. But unfortunately, they are often both needed in the same programs.

But if I were to write, for example, a text editor I'd use "RAmiga-A" for "Select all text" (to stay in line with the convention in other OSes) and leave the "Save as" menu item with no shortcut.

I can understand that. However, I would personally miss having a shortcut key for Save As. It's not easy to find the perfect solution ...

BTW, while you're at it, could you mention another thumb rule which I see especially Anglophone authors break now and again? Never use characters other than (ASCII) letters and digits and a few very common other charaters (e.g. question mark, full stop, comma, plus, minus) as menu shortcuts. They may seem quite accessible on an English/American keyboard, but on e.g. a Danish one, the square or curly brackets and others require the alt key held down, and this clashes with the use of Alt+Amiga to emulate the mouse buttons - unless you hold the left Alt, the Right Amiga and the shortcut key, which is only easy for people with large hands .

Best regards,

Niels

@nbache

Maybe we should even leave Save as out of the list and mention it in the text as originally suggested, but today probably more useful for Select all?

Sounds like a splendid idea to me!

Never use characters other than (ASCII) letters and digits and a few very common other charaters (e.g. question mark

But we have just standardized RAmiga + ? as a menu shortcut for "About"! You said: "The question mark is definitely a de facto standard by now which ought to be canonized."

trixie wrote:@nbache

Never use characters other than (ASCII) letters and digits and a few very common other charaters (e.g. question mark

But we have just standardized RAmiga + ? as a menu shortcut for "About"

Yes, and that is fine, because it "only" requires Shift as qualifier at least on the keymaps I know of, and so do the others I mentioned in that parenthesis. Whereas the square and curly brackets (as well as the dollar sign, the backslash and the @ sign, to mention a few others) require Alt and thus give the problem I described.

Best regards,

Niels

@nbache

OK, will add a note about that tomorrow-ish.

trixie wrote: Perhaps the sentence I've marked in bold above should be removed in the respective wiki page? And an explicit note about not localizing keyboard shortcuts should be added?

If it is removed then the system keyboard shortcuts for most languages will need to be revamped. For example, try switching languages on your system and check out the Workbench keyboard shortcuts shown in the menus. I would suggest an official decision (by Hyperion or ssolie) before removing that line and then bringing all the system keyboard shortcuts in all languages into compliance before changing the WIKI styleguide.

nbache wrote: The reason you should not change the menu shortcut keys is one of safety. If a user has learnt the shortcuts (s)he uses most, and maybe one day uses a machine with a different locale, it would be potentially dangerous to have a well-known shortcut take on a different meaning. Imagine you wanted to print, but R-Amiga P suddenly means Delete. And remember, you can't see the menu shortcuts when you use them. Only when you don't (i.e. you open the actual menu).

I don't know if that is the reason for not making it possible in the menu class, but it makes sense to me.

I agree with you in principal but let's not make this another "Do as I say and not as I do" situation. As I pointed out to trixie, there are a lot of keyboard shortcut changes in the system locale catalog files. If you really want to change the recommended handling of keyboard shortcuts, the system catalogs should be changed.

@xenic

xenic wrote: If it is removed then the system keyboard shortcuts for most languages will need to be revamped. For example, try switching languages on your system and check out the Workbench keyboard shortcuts shown in the menus.

Well we haven't been talking about (or changing anything in the wiki) in relation to system keyboard shortcuts ("System Keyboard Shortcuts" and "Application Keyboard Shortcuts" are two different sub-chapters) but I agree this should be consistent. Could anyone from the OS dev team please comment on that?

I just noticed that if I change my system language to French, the first menu item in the Workbench menu has what appears to be "Az" (R_Amiga lowercase z) which does nothing on my system. Am I mistaking the lowercase z for another character?