Hyperion Entertainment Message Boards

@trixie
I'm sure you're right, as it's the most helpful thing from the user's point of view. And I've always treated "..." like that (thus PictureAlbum's Help, About & Preferences menu items do not end with "..." despite opening windows.) Sounds like the User Interface Style Guide needs fixing.

@ChrisH

Sounds like the User Interface Style Guide needs fixing.

Absolutely. I just wanted to exchange a few opinions before I add notes to the Guide.

trixie wrote:

Sounds like the User Interface Style Guide needs fixing.

Absolutely. I just wanted to exchange a few opinions before I add notes to the Guide.

Thanks for taking the initiative!

This is part of the reason for having a wiki. The community can contribute as well. Kudos.

trixie wrote:My opinion is that actions that merely require confirmation should not need an ellipsis. Three reasons:

I don't agree, but I do follow your argumentation. So the only thing I would like to challenge in it is this:

2. It's a universal software design rule that a program will never scrap your work or data willy-nilly, without your own consent. The user should know that, so there's IMHO no particular need to indicate that he/she will be able to back out of an action: it's quite an obvious thing.

This is in my opinion wrong. The user should not be expected to know about universal software design rules, but the programmer should. So the ellipses have the purpose of reassuring the user that this action can in fact (like we programmers already know it should) be relied on to not do any harm without his/her consent.

Best regards,

Niels

P.S. I do agree that to take this to its logical conclusion, programmers who make an option for disabling e.g. a Quit requester should also change the Quit menu item dynamically according to its state - adding or removing the ellipsis.

@nbache

Nils, I agree that user assumptions can be tricky, and I always warn against them as regards, for example, assumptions of technical knowledge or knowledge of system internals (rather common in Amiga world, by the way). But that users will expect their software to be safe and functional is a pretty sound assumption - and by the way, that they will be familiar with the ellipsis convention is an assumption as well (We can really get down to bits here but that's not terribly helpful.)

GUI design is tricky, because there are no universal rules that apply in all contexts of software use: just recommendations based on successful practice. I can surely imagine a programmer to put "Delete..." or "Format..." in the menu to indicate a subsequent confirmation requester (and increase the user feeling of safety, though this is ... heck! ... just an assumption again! ) But your suggestion to add/remove the label ellipsis dynamically based on confirmation settings is really beyond my imaginaton. Have you actually seen such practice anywhere in software world, on any platform? I can't say I have.

trixie wrote:But that users will expect their software to be safe and functional is a pretty sound assumption - and by the way, that they will be familiar with the ellipsis convention is an assumption as well

Agreed, most people will have a vague idea that the ellipsis means that "there is something else soming". But i doubt they will have a clear feeling about when exactly to expect it and when not, in the context you advocate adopting. OTOH, on AmigaOS, it has been a clear distinction always that the ellipsis shows that there is a chance to bail out, so long-time Amiga users are usually comfortable in that knowledge - which is quite a good reason not to change it, IMHO.

But your suggestion to add/remove the label ellipsis dynamically based on confirmation settings is really beyond my imaginaton. Have you actually seen such practice anywhere in software world, on any platform? I can't say I have.

No, I haven't either. I was planning to put the word "extreme" in that sentence ("to its extreme logical conclusion"), but it slipped my mind again when posting. But it would actually have made quite good sense in the context of the traditional Amiga usage of ellipses.

Best regards,

Niels

@trixie
I would agree that the ellipsis recommendation could use some clarification but please don't make it too restrictive. If you search the Internet I think you will find that the use of an ellipsis is generally acceptable when a word or phrase won't fit in the space available. An example would be tabs in a prefs GUI or a WEB Browser. As I'm writing this post, I have multiple tabs open in OWB and some of the titles in the tabs are using an ellipsis to indicate that the titles are truncated. After all, the computer use of the ellipsis is based of earlier existing linguistic use (continuation or truncation).

I don't know if you've written any programs that have a large number of locale translations, but I've had some real battles with translators over ellipsis usage. For one thing, the English (European?) ellipsis isn't universal. For example, in Chinese or Jabanese the elipsis constists of six dots (......) and in some languages it's a different symbol altogether. However, the main argument I get from some translators is that the equivalent words for GUI default English words are too long to fit in the available space and that they used an ellipsis to indicate that the word was truncated. Personally, I think that's an acceptable use of an ellipsis but the "ellipsis police" disagree . I really hate the fact that latter versions of "Flexcat" try to enforce ellipsis usage by flagging the addition or removal of ellipsis from translations as errors.

The bottom line is that I suggest you recommend instances where ellipsis should be used but not restrict ellipsis usage in instances where word or phrase truncation is necessary.

@xenic

don't make it too restrictive.

I cannot, for the simple reason that the Style Guide is not a strict rule book but, rather, a set of recommendations based on successful practice (as I've said earlier). So no one is going to chop your head off because you put "About..." in your menu strip I started this discussion because I found, based on an extensive study of other OS's user experience guidelines, that the ellipsis is a little overused in AmigaOS. We're just trying to find some common ground as regards the logic of ellipsis usage, that's all.

the use of an ellipsis is generally acceptable when a word or phrase won't fit in the space available.

I can see your point, makes sense, but I wouldn't really encourage doing that in menus. Menu labels normally don't suffer from size restrictions because they can be as wide as the screen estate allows - which, today, means A LOT of room. We must strive for a predictable and reliable system where the user knows that an ellipsis indicates a subsequent step, not that it is merely a way to shorten the label text.

@nbache

on AmigaOS, it has been a clear distinction always that the ellipsis shows that there is a chance to bail out, so long-time Amiga users are usually comfortable in that knowledge

That's not really the case - the ellipsis simply indicated that something is going to pop up, a subwindow or a requester. The original Style Guide is quite clear on this. The ellipsis itself said nothing about the chance to bail out.

What I'll most likely do is add a note that if a chance to confirm the action is given, it can be indicated by an ellipsis, as if it were user input. Should please everybody I guess

trixie wrote:The original Style Guide is quite clear on this. The ellipsis itself said nothing about the chance to bail out.

Hmm, that may be so. I'm not sure whether this was from the style guide or from other sources back then (discussions on mailing lists, tutorials and other treatment in magazines, books or whatever*). I've just always held it in high regard as one of the things you could count on in AmigaOS.

What I'll most likely do is add a note that if a chance to confirm the action is given, it can be indicated by an ellipsis, as if it were user input. Should please everybody I guess

Sounds like a fine compromise to me . Thanks!.

Best regards,

Niels

*) Edit: Maybe there was such a statement in the user manuals accompanying the machines/OS back then? I'll have to check that when I find some of mine the next time. I do remember it in connection with some tutorial-like description for beginners about how AmigaOS works.