Any hope for a Wayfarer browser port for OS 4?

A forum for general AmigaOS 4.x support questions that are not platform-specific
Belxjander
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Re: Any hope for a Wayfarer browser port for OS 4?

Post by Belxjander »

Belxjander wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:32 am
am I wrong?
Not wrong but you don't get the point. Are you sure browsers are still monolithic?
You can already replace some parts e.g. https://stackoverflow.com/a/52383997/1430535
Sorry I was not being more specific with regards to referencing monolithic Amiga Browsers and Ports,
(TimberWolf's build as an example comes off as *very* monolithic at runtime due to the Shared Objects all being dynamicly linked in as part of the executable image at load and NOT shared with other appliactions which may use them, I personally see this as only one example of being monolithic)

As for WebKit and other "Web Render Engines"... pick one and wrap it in a DataType, that is what I actually have in mind.

as for Wayfarer being Objective-C... GCC has an ObjC compilation as part of the build process... what is needed to make that functionality work in addition to the C and C++ build chains within GCC using the Amiga Compiler Patches for the GCC project?

We already have GCC "port"ed... it does have Objective-C support as an option (I haven't seen this added to build options though?... something extra needed?)

We do have a working build toolchain for C and C++, what "out there"(projects for other platforms...) can we actually build with the tools we have?
can we then proceed to step-by-step build the resources and update DataTypes to include what is required for a more "modern" browser experience?

As for a DataType doing HTML+CSS specifically... it can then have a JavaScript specific set of methods in addition to the base DataTypes setup so that JavaScript and other scripting languages can bind and modify "Web Page" Objects as required by scripting elements...

This also divides the pre-requisite "Web Render" and "JavaScript" engines into being separated... along with the "Browser Application" also being separated... (can become individual projects for each element)...

as you pointed out with the StackOverflow URL (see above)... "modern"(non-Amiga) Web Browsers have already done this...

and the main issues with the other platforms in regards to Endianness of the JIT engines is actually in the JavaScript JIT from what little I have seen... is this incorrect?

I'm not stating to "start from scratch"... I'm more looking at a hybrid of AmigaOS specific engineering (DataTypes, Libraries and Application as separate binaries and truly dynamic ABI linking using the AmigaOS shared library mechanisms not the ELF/SO and MS/PE style) along with "Unix philosophy"(one tool to do the job and do it well) reworked for AmigaOS (one component to do a job and do it well) so that we can then
proceed with picking what works for our platform and only making the ?minimal? changes needed for it to work and wrapped as the specific component we need.

"HTML/CSS Rendering Engine" can be made into a DataType, at least a starting step maybe?
"JavaScript Engine" can be made into a Library (whats needed for a Library to use an .so and share the API maybe?)

"Application" can then use the above DataType+Library pair for those functionalities... and focus on the User Interface around it.

building a specific AmigaOS specific engine isn't requred as long as we can fill in a DataType or Library with an engine (even ported and wrapped for this?) that can then be used by multiple Applications as a shared DataType and Library set.

Would this breaking down of larger projects into smaller steps and then putting pieces into place actually work instead of needing whole "large" projects ported and built with a massive effort each time?

once the DataType is in place... upgrading the DataType would upgrade the HTML handling...
once the JavaScript Library is in place... we can upgrade the JavaScript support...

and we can proceed with the above *independent* of what the actual Browser support is...
doesn't this make things easier at all?
NinjaCyborg
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Re: Any hope for a Wayfarer browser port for OS 4?

Post by NinjaCyborg »

Well, I am willing to put a good amount of money behind this project (see thread above), and I have developers willing to work on it, but we need support from Amiga toolchain and kernel devs, and none has been forthcoming so far. Only cynicism, trolling and hostility.
kas1e
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Re: Any hope for a Wayfarer browser port for OS 4?

Post by kas1e »

@NBache
Just because the MorphOS people needed to change things in their kernel, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's also needed in the AmigaOS kernel.
That true. We may need almost no changes, or a little ones. But that need motivatin from Trevor to direct what to do on the Exec team. But he can be motivated for sure, once someone will start a work on, and point what exactly and where problems arise.
Do we know exactly which changes they had to make in their kernel and why?
At least only one single issue is known:
https://github.com/sba1/adtools/issues/82

Which of course, can be fixed, once, anyone who is the real developer will start work on all this browser stuff.

But to be honest, do we really need a browser? I mean, we always will with issues with it. Always there will be in needs someone who always works on it. Boring and noninteresting work. Somehow should pay for it all the time, every month probabaly.

@NinjaCyborg
Sorry, but how long you will talk about talks? If you have money, developers, start the work and show what you already do, and where you stop, and what the problem is. Find out problems where is none is not the way to do the work. Everything can be workarounded, dealing with, asking for help, and so on. If your "developers" are real developers, they can build everything on what we have public already. Even our GCC and stuff are open-sourced in most, and everything can be found and fixed if there are real developers behind.

Webkit core port is more or less easy, all the PPC endian fixes can be taken from Linux-void-ppc port, and even without them, WebKit core will works, just crash on java-script sites. But going to that point means you already can have a browser. And can be done right now. With current toolchain, with current public components. Native GUI writing be it reaction or mui is easy and can be done right now with no (or minimal) restrictions and workarounds. What you are waiting for? I only see how often you start to claim about issues and problems which we all know, but without dealing with them? That not how motivated man do the deals. If you want something you do it, if you didn't you find all excuses. But all those cheap talks sucks hard. It's Belxajder's work to make a fuzz about nothing and keep talking about things for 10 years without any outcome.

Start it, do something, show what you have, then it all can be discussed, helped, fixed, and stuff. But not like now: for a year (or more?) talking about "team of developers" and in end only amiga1200 and harsh posts. Where even damn simple window with menu, and simple WebKit core port (i for myself, alone, done this already, while I even not a developer).

And the last one, about "money" you have. Are you for real think 1000 or 10000 is somehow motivation to make a browser for real? There is only way is motivated developers and that all. Will you pay 5000$ monthly for a developer working on browsers for few years ? Sure not.

At end of all, you can ask Jacadaps how much he wants to port Waywarer to os4. Sure, he will be in need to rewrite GUI to be C and not ObjectiveC, making some workarounds, dealing with new issues in os4, but I sure that not a showstopper if one wants to do the work. If I remember right, he says somewhere that he may do it for 20.000$, so go make a deal with him if you have money and not only talk because of talk :)
Only cynicism, trolling, and hostility.
Sorry, but of late, I only see it from you. Examples:
1). when we find issues with os4depot, you start point by fingers on orgin, saying it his fault, but you surely know everything may happen on the provider's side too from time to time?
2). when you were asked to not derail thread here with unrelated stuff, you start acting like a child, so the thread was closed and you again create threads about "so toxic" and crap, which if I were admin, deleting immediately, but it still here, to make you a favor.
3). you talk about a "team of developers" all the time, and none is coming from. Feels like cheap talk. Once I have someone who can do something, i take out his soul till the end and have something from it, but not just talking about.

So, what you talk about? Trolling? Cynism? Hostility? Haha. Imho, there is just everyone too tolerant and allows all this talks at all.
Last edited by kas1e on Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
NinjaCyborg
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Re: Any hope for a Wayfarer browser port for OS 4?

Post by NinjaCyborg »

And you are one of the worst my friend. Help, or get out of the way.
kas1e
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Re: Any hope for a Wayfarer browser port for OS 4?

Post by kas1e »

That what I talk about. Help with what? What you do already and what issues you had?
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Raziel
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Re: Any hope for a Wayfarer browser port for OS 4?

Post by Raziel »

Why does it always have to end in tears?
People are dying.
Entire ecosystems are collapsing.
We are in the beginning of a mass extinction.
And all you can talk about is money and fairytales of eternal economic growth.
How dare you!
– Greta Thunberg
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