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Re: Expand AISS to a complete set

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:36 pm
by nbache
imagodespira wrote:@kas1e: why should it load 10-20 seconds?
Because any access to a directory with more than around 1000 files in it on an FFS partition is seriously slow. Try it for yourself.

Best regards,

Niels

Re: Expand AISS to a complete set

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:29 pm
by imagodespira
nbache wrote:
imagodespira wrote:@kas1e: why should it load 10-20 seconds?
Because any access to a directory with more than around 1000 files in it on an FFS partition is seriously slow. Try it for yourself.

Best regards,

Niels
... but only if you want to acces the directory with the workbench/filer etc. If you are coding you just pick the one file name you need. I think no one needs to look at all the 4000 images directly in the drawer, try "AISSview" in OS4Depot, this i use to pick my wanted icons for loading it later in our software.... it is fast ;)

Re: Expand AISS to a complete set

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:30 pm
by chris
imagodespira wrote:... but only if you want to acces the directory with the workbench/filer etc. If you are coding you just pick the one file name you need. I think no one needs to look at all the 4000 images directly in the drawer, try "AISSview" in OS4Depot, this i use to pick my wanted icons for loading it later in our software.... it is fast ;)
I used to use FFS for my boot partition, and still have the old partition hanging around with AISS installed on it. there are 2605 files. If you pick individual files out then they load at the speed you'd expect (ie. exactly the same speed as they do from any small directory). Getting a list of the files in ASL takes as long as you'd expect too (ie. annoyingly longer than the amount of time it takes to see the file you want and not be able to select it because the requester is updating constantly). I see no difference in these between FFS and SFS (and, if I could boot off JXFS, I'd expect exactly the same there too).

Sure, if you're loading thousands of images off a FFS partition it's going to take a while. But for ten or twenty images - which is all most applications use - the difference between FFS and any other filesystem is negligable. Accessing a file from a path takes the same amount of time no matter how much other stuff is in the directory with it. Neither the OS nor the application needs to do a directory listing in order to load one file. If it does, that's a bug.

Re: Expand AISS to a complete set

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:07 pm
by kas1e
@all
Theory is always good, but just get some apps which use AISS, then make boot parition as FFS, install whole AISS there, and run one by one all those apps which use it. Start from DiskImage and continue by anything else. You will see everything yourself.
@kas1e: why should it load 10-20 seconds?
maybe shouldn't , but it is reality with which i meet and what was seriously suck for my first meet with aos4 (the same as it can be for other newbes if we will now put whole aiss without thinking about how to make it all good and cover all the problems).
but only if you want to acces the directory with the workbench/filer etc. If you are coding you just pick the one file name you need. I think no one needs to look at all the 4000 images directly in the drawer, try "AISSview" in OS4Depot, this i use to pick my wanted icons for loading it later in our software.... it is fast
Coding theory are good, but reality is it : many of our aiss based apps suck hard when whole aiss set on FFS. Why it happens : i not so know, but i assume that FFS just suck and does not matter if you get one file, or another without scanning. Maybe ffs do some caching of some things, maybe anything else which slow things down. I do not know. But what i know for sure, is that current apps which are on os4depot (and even some which in contribs to os4), will suck some omiga1200 if your boot fs are FFS, and you istall on the same boot-ffs-partition whole aiss set.
Neither the OS nor the application needs to do a directory listing in order to load one file. If it does, that's a bug.
Pretty possible in FFS, yes. But no one will fix it as it low priority or maybe will be abandoned do not know. But what i know for sure, if we will put whole AISS as it is now to FFS, it will give users a problems. Fixes only 2 : remove FFS totally from os (or fix it, or whatever to do with) or reorganize AISS so it will have just bunch of directoryes per let's say 100 files in each (and for support all old apps which get them from root of aiis, just put some redirect scripts, or softlinks, or whatever).

Re: Expand AISS to a complete set

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:00 pm
by mason
Just a view words of clarification with respect to AISS:

1) Hyperion has the perpetual rights to use and distribute AISS within AmigaOS
2) From my point of view the biggest problem is the amount of images in AISS:
2.1) If AmigaOS will change to a different design, somebody has to change a view thousands of icons.
2.2) If Hyperion decides to hire someone else for the icons design, that poor soul would have a big problem.

Therefore I think it is better to keep AISS as a contribution.

Re: Expand AISS to a complete set

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:48 pm
by djrikki
There are many more important things to be concentrating on.

I use SFS as my system partition as recommended and here is my experience.

I am currently trying to pinpoint why Jack takes 8 seconds to open from a fresh boot - previously 14 seconds I've managed to optimize a little.

Then I moved to AISS, Jack loads 500+ icons at startup (I consider this to be an above average figure) into Hollywood brushes, so my thinking is how long is it actually taking to do that.
Throughout the start up process I append to a text file using Uptime in C:.

Do you know how long it takes to load this amount of icons?

Answer: A fraction of second.

Not even enough to worry about.

PS: Can UpTime show milliseconds? Is there a command line argument for it? (away from computer)
If it doesnt maybe thats a new AmigaOS feature for me to add to the list and hope for.... If however you dont plan to support that ability I will lose no sleep!
I trust that it would be a quick enhancement to make.